free html hit counter Peak Oil Debunked: 391. GEOTHERMAL UPDATE

Tuesday, January 13, 2009

391. GEOTHERMAL UPDATE

Video on EGS (Enhanced Geothermal Systems) featuring incoming US Energy Secretary, Steve Chu:



Yukon Energy cranks up search for geothermal heat source
Yukon Energy Corp. will spend about $285,000 this year to try to find an affordable source of geothermal power, the utility says.
The utility is contributing the money towards a research project to study the Yukon's geothermal potential.
Tata Power to set up geothermal, solar plants in Gujarat
Mumbai: Tata Group company Tata Power Monday said it is looking at the possibility of setting up a geothermal power plant and a solar power plant of 5 MW each at a suitable location in Gujarat, a move that will strengthen the renewable energy portfolio of the company.
Baoshan energy park uses geothermal pumping system
HANGING food above cool water in a well used to be one of the most popular ways to keep it cool in summer, and so did blocks of ice for ice boxes in the days before refrigerators that ran on electricity.

Now that old approach - using the constant temperature of underground water - is again being used today for air conditioning.

The idea of the small well has been enlarged to more than 10,000 square meters in northern Shanghai's Baoshan District.

In an energy conservation center in Baoshan, you can see a line of round holes in the wall of the conference hall.

It's air conditioning for the Shanghai International Energy Conservation and Environmental Protection Park.
On Campus: Geothermal energy coming to University of Wisconsin-Madison
Drilling began last week for a geothermal heating and cooling system for the future Wisconsin Institutes for Discovery — the first research facility at the University of Wisconsin-Madison to use the economical energy source.

The system, which uses the relatively constant temperature of the earth to regulate building temperature, will provide an annual 10 percent savings on energy use.
Warm up to geothermal heating-cooling
Geothermal heating and cooling is becoming a hot topic in the Great Falls area for people thinking about building new, larger homes.

This heating system leans green but costs at least one-fourth more than a conventional heating and cooling system, according to Ron Walker, service manager at Central Plumbing and Heating in Great Falls.
Diggingdeeptobringpower to the people
FROM MPs to famous novelists, everyone is warming to the idea of geothermal energy, says Environment Correspondent KELLEY PRICE

There is massive potential in the Tees Valley because ground source heat is ideally suited for off-gas houses - Adam Woodhead, Geocore

CHANNELLING heat from the earth for electricity has been pioneered in countries such as Sweden and Germany for years, but while the technology may not be new, it’s suddenly a hot topic among the green crusaders.

Redcar company Geocore has seen its turnover treble in the last two years, since it branched out into borehole drilling for ground source heat pumps.

Their national client list reads like a who’s who of famous names and places - including Labour MP Clare Short and the author behind the Hollywood hit Golden Compass, who both had their London homes fitted with the carbon-saving system.

At the other end of the geothermal spectrum, a £32.5m pioneering project has been launched in the South-west to create seven geothermal power stations - and similar deep drilling technology to access heat from hot springs is likely to be used at Weardale, which has been identified as having the ideal strata.
Japan geothermal projects pick up after 20 years: report
Several Japanese firms will kick off new projects to build geothermal power plans this year for the first time in nearly two decades, the Nikkei business daily reported on Saturday.

Mitsubishi Materials Corp, Electric Power Development Co, or J-Power, Nittetsu Mining Co Ltd and Kyushu Electric Power Co will lead the way, and the government plans to step up support for geothermal power station development, it added.

With active volcanoes scattered around the country, Japan is well-placed to tap geothermal energy as a power source and the attraction of a domestic source of energy is also fuelling the drive, the newspaper said.
Maryland Elementary School Installs Geothermal System
Lincoln Elementary School in Frederick, Md., is the latest educational institution to use geothermal energy for its heating and cooling needs.

Gazette.net reports that the newly modernized 86-year-old school is the first public school in its county have a geothermal system. The installation is part of the school's green design, and school officials hope to use the geothermal system as part of their effort to achieve certification in Leadership in Engineering and Environmental Design.
Geothermal energy put to test at schools
Some school districts in Arizona are considering geothermal energy to reduce utility costs. Earlier this month, the Cave Creek Unified School District governing board approved the drilling of a test well at its high-school campus.

K.M. Drilling, a Camp Verde firm, will drill a 250-foot test well on Jan. 10 on the campus at Cactus Shadows High School at no cost to the district. Corgan Associates, a Phoenix architecture firm, has spoken with the Paradise Valley Unified School District about a similar project.
Utah startup hits geothermal jackpot
Within six months of discovering a massive geothermal field, a small Utah company had erected and fired up a power plant — just one example of the speed with which companies are capitalizing on state mandates for alternative energy.

Anticipation of new energy policies has sparked a rush on land leases as companies like Raser Technologies Inc., based in Provo, lock up property that hold geothermal fields and potentially huge profits.

Raser's find, about 155 miles southwest of Provo, could eventually power 200,000 homes.

The company said it will begin routing electricity to Anaheim, Calif. within weeks.
Ormat gets loan for Kenya geothermal project
Ormat Industries Ltd. (TASE: ORMT) subsidiary Ormat Technologies Inc. (NYSE: ORA)has obtained a $105 million ten-year loan for its Olkaria geothermal project in Kenya. The refinancing is for the 48-megawatt Olkaria III geothermal power plant in Naivasha, in the Rift Valley in Kenya, owned by Ormat Technologies unit OrPower 4 Inc.

Ormat financed the $150 million construction of Olkaria I and II, as well as the drilling of wells, from its own internal sources. Phase II, completed in December 2008, added 35 MW to the project, bringing it to the target capacity of 48 MW. The electricity generated is sold to Kenya Power & Light Company under a 20-year power purchase agreement.
Geothermal heating in action
At the General Theological Seminary in New York City, thoughts, if not eyes, are meant to be cast heavenward. But the oldest Episcopal seminary in the United States also is looking deep underground for a way to heat and cool its buildings.

Earlier this year seven wells were completed that drilled into schist rock formation hundreds of feet below Manhattan island to tap an underground river that flows at a constant 65-degree temperature year round. By circulating that water to the surface, several of the seminary’s handsome 19th-century buildings are being cooled in summer and heated in winter. When the project is completed, 20 such wells will heat and cool the entire campus.
Prospects for Canada’s geothermal industry continue to heat up
We may be living in uncertain economic times, but firms working in the geothermal industry are optimistic that the buoyant sales growth they have enjoyed during the last year will continue, although some flattening of the sales curve may be in store.

“Preliminary reports indicate that the geoexchange industry is growing at between 40 per cent and 260 per cent depending on the region,” said Ted Kantrowitz, vice-president of the Canadian GeoExchange Coalition. “In Ontario, I think the highest profile report has been that heat pump sales have grown about 200 per cent this year.”
Commissioners Look at Jail and Justice Center Geothermal Plans
Mower County Commissioners got to check out plans for the new jail and justice center's geothermal field. County leaders say they want to make sure the energy source would be big enough if the county adds on to the jail and justice center.
Local authorities warm to geothermal energy
The idea of harnessing the heat stored deep underground as a source of renewable energy appears to be gaining ground in Switzerland. Earlier this week the Geneva authorities announced plans for a CHF200 million geothermal project to provide natural heat and energy to thousands of homes. Meanwhile, the city of St Gallen has set its sights on building the country’s first geothermal power station.
Anatomy of an energy-efficient building
The new business and teacher education building at Mesa State College will be the most energy-efficient building on the Western Slope within the next year, according to Xcel Energy.

[...]

Eggleston said the building’s geo-exchange ground-heating system was the deal-maker for the distinction because it supplants boilers and forced-air heating systems such as furnaces to heat the building using the Earth’s natural heat.

[...]

The geo-exchange ground-heating system, built under the field adjacent to the building, sucks temperature from the soil and pumps it into the building. At the time of design, the system was estimated to pay for itself in saved energy costs in 15 years, said spokeswoman Dana Nunn, but it may be sooner because energy costs have gone up.

The Environmental Protection Agency estimates systems such as these can reduce energy consumption by more than 70 percent over heating with conventional air-conditioning systems.

Mesa State included a campuswide geo-exchange system project to submit to the state Legislature that would cost $5.49 million.
by JD

37 Comments:

At Tuesday, January 13, 2009 at 10:42:00 AM PST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

In 1953 while our Army Engineer outfit was building Osan Airbase in Korea, we used an abandoned well to keep our canned beer in a bag cool. Over popularity and under capacity of the well quickly became a problem. J.C. Sr.

 
At Tuesday, January 13, 2009 at 11:03:00 AM PST, Anonymous benny "MOAG" cole said...

You might have missed the big stuff; from Wikipedia:
"A 2006 report by MIT, that took into account the use of Enhanced Geothermal Systems (EGS), concluded that it would be affordable to generate 100 GWe (gigawatts of electricity) or more by 2050 in the United States alone, for a maximum investment of 1 billion US dollars in research and development over 15 years.[9]

The MIT report calculated the world's total EGS resources to be over 13,000 ZJ. Of these, over 200 ZJ would be extractable, with the potential to increase this to over 2,000 ZJ with technology improvements - sufficient to provide all the world's present energy needs for several millennia.[9]"
But, I forgot: The earth's core is giving out. It is called "Peak Molten Core."

 
At Tuesday, January 13, 2009 at 1:55:00 PM PST, Anonymous Babun said...

Peak Molten Core, jesus. You'd better not use the phrase "when hell freezes over" anymore, then.

 
At Tuesday, January 13, 2009 at 3:32:00 PM PST, Anonymous benny "MOAG" cole said...

Babun: You are much smarter than your homonym name would suggest. That's funny.

 
At Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 5:45:00 AM PST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

$285,000 dollars? WOW. That is a serious fucking investment.

 
At Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 6:42:00 AM PST, Blogger Barba Rija said...

As usual anonjerk cherry picks a number and smirks off with a punch line that only outlines his own dogmatism in the religion of doom.

If EGS fulfills its promises, I'd like to see the redfaces of Kunstler et al when they realise that suburbia will last forever.

Ahahah!

 
At Wednesday, January 14, 2009 at 7:51:00 AM PST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's interesting to me is the one key showstopper in the dieoff argument.

As production decreases and demand continues increasing, there opens up an infinite price rise since net total energy decreases.

Back in the real world, things like geothermal, biofuels, wind, solar etc knock a huge hole in the "supply-demand" gap.
Moreover, if all energy was to be supplied by geothermal and wind with humungous batteries then that means price rises and then stops when demand is met. Not continually rising prices FOREVER.

Dieoff theory is not a theory. It's a religion.

 
At Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 3:39:00 AM PST, Blogger Big Gav said...

One overlooked form of geothermal power that gets nowhere near the press EGS does but is further along the commercialisation cycle is low temperature geothermal.

I assembled a lot of links on both low temp geothermal and EGS into these 2 posts (apologies for spamming with links to my own blogs) :

http://ourcleanenergyfuture.blogspot.com/2008/11/low-temperature-geothermal-power.html
http://peakenergy.blogspot.com/2007/11/geothermia-revisited.html

 
At Thursday, January 15, 2009 at 4:08:00 AM PST, Anonymous The Best Heat Pump Systems said...

Interesting article !

 
At Friday, January 16, 2009 at 8:04:00 AM PST, Blogger OptimisticDoomer said...

Great article, once again!

Ok, now to go off topic for a second, I hope this is ok.

I'm hoping to get an unbiased reply about the BDI & worldwide shipping. Are things really as bad as the doomers are making it out to be? Are we really going to see shortages in the next couple of weeks because of the slump in shipping? LATOC even has a 'shortage map' now lol *rolls eyes*.

I'm hoping to hear some level headed replies about it. I can look at the last 5 years of the BDI and see a huge bubble forming. To me, it seems like a correction & yes a slow down because of the deep recession.

I've been stocking up on imported goods just in case, but I don't know how severe this problem is.

 
At Friday, January 16, 2009 at 5:17:00 PM PST, Anonymous AndrewRyan said...

OptimisticDoomer:

Don't be scared/fooled by the doomer's newest fear mongering tool - the BDI crashing last November. Keep in mind a few things:

-Ships have massive lead times, cost lots of money to idle, and even more money to bring back into service.

-Therefore, demand shocks cause insane, over-exaggerated, fluctuations in freight rates and ship prices.

-While the BDI is unique because it offers a real time glimpse at global demand for raw materials, don't look at it like you would a stock or commodities index.

Basically, the BDI is hypersensitive to small increases or decreases in global demand because of large lead times and the high cost of taking ships out of circulation. A few years ago the BDI was doubling like every other month or so due to only a moderate increase in demand.

That's all you need to know. The recent BDI crash is indicative of a recession and/or a mild depression, not doomsday.

All of this aside, even if you didn't know this information, don't you think that the BDI crashing = shortages story would have broke on just one main stream media channel? I mean, seriously, the media loves to overhype and dramatize things, if there were really going to be empty shelves in a few months, don't you think it would be all over the news? LATOC forum junkies aren't a special group of people that are "in the know", anymore than me or you, or the rest of the world. Why would they know this information and not anyone else? They are doing what they do best, using bad news to the best of their ability to predict a doomsday scenario.

 
At Friday, January 16, 2009 at 5:32:00 PM PST, Blogger JD said...

OD,
Just curious, but what goods are they predicting to run short in the next few weeks? Got any quotes or a link to the shortage map? What goods are you stocking up on?

 
At Friday, January 16, 2009 at 7:21:00 PM PST, Blogger OptimisticDoomer said...

Thanks for the reply AndrewRyan. I figure the truth is always somewhere between what the doomers & msm say. I have to admit it still raises my anxiety level a little.

JD - They say there are currently shortages in canned food, cat & dog food, and breads. They seem to think just about everything, but electronics, will soon be in shortage. They post them in the pinned 'shortages thread'. The map is on this page..doesn't list specifics though. So I guess 1 item out of stock at 1 store = shortage lol

http://www.doomers.us/forum2/index.php/topic,29730.480.html

It's been a real feeding frenzy there lately. They are all convinced this is the final spiral of doom before collapse. Much bickering and fighting, but also a lot of excitement about collapse, which I find very odd.

I'm just buying extra personal care items, socks, shoes, warm clothes. Stuff like that. I do make sure our pantry is full, but with our crazy weather that's almost mandatory anyway.

 
At Friday, January 16, 2009 at 8:24:00 PM PST, Blogger Ari said...

OD,

I haven't heard of any shortages, and I haven't seen any myself. Perhaps these guys are living in places hit harder by the recession? I suspect that places that are getting hit harder by the nasty winter are getting fewer consumables than I am in NY, but that's just a guess.

I took a cursory look at what people were saying there, and the majority of it was like, "OMG! They were out of ______ today! TEOTWAKI!"

I shop at two markets: Trader Joe's and Stop 'n Shop. The former is a bit more "boutique" and the latter is your standard run 'o the mill supermarket. One of my "guilty pleasures" is cheese (yes, cheese.) I buy a lot of imported cheeses, and I have yet to run into anything more nasty than "sorry, we're out of that today."

I mean, hell. I went to Trader Joe's once and they were out of their chicken nuggets! Can you imagine the sheer terror that washed over me when I realized that they underestimated that day/week's demand? It would be pure folly to imagine that it was anything less than a SIGN. Yes, a sign of dooooooom!

It kind of reminds me of the "butter famine" Japan had last year (or was it 2007?) that some started calling "the beginning of the end." It was funny how the PO sites and green sites like Treehugger and Grist started blaming it on resource shortages or something else, and they didn't bother to research the fact that Japan's dairy industry had recently culled a significant portion of the herd (I don't remember why), leading to significantly reduced production of dairy and dairy products. End of the world, right?

The thing that a lot of people don't realize is that meeting suply is really fickle. Companies don't want to overproduce, because that leads to unsold inventory. But they don't want to underproduce either, because that leads to lost sales opportunities. Right now, a lot of producers are cutting back production for any number of reasons, AND we're getting hit by a nasty winter in a lot of the world. It's a double whammy of hurt.

BTW, it's funny to me that all those guys are going, "OMG PRODUCE IS MORE EXPENSIVE NOW THAN IT WAS A FEW MONTHS BACK."

Duh? IT'S WINTER!



----

Quick aside: I'm currently reading through The Myth of the Oil Crisis. If JD permits, I'll post my review. It's quite good so far! There is a lot of stuff in there that I didn't know. What's funny, though, is how much I already knew thanks to this very blog!

In any case, I recommend it. I picked it up cheap on Half.com. It's competing with Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman, though, so you'll have to be patient! Richard Feynman is, admittedly, more fun to read.

 
At Friday, January 16, 2009 at 8:48:00 PM PST, Anonymous AndrewRyan said...

Ari: I'm currently reading that book as well, I've already learned a lot from it. Very good book from a great author.

 
At Friday, January 16, 2009 at 9:51:00 PM PST, Blogger JD said...

Yah, the great Japan butter shortage. LOL.

Here's some typical hype from that time (lowem, from peakoil.com):

"How about that. An entire country, and a pretty wealthy one at that, running out of butter, something that people have almost taken for granted. It tends to kind of shake the arguments of those who have been saying that with enough money, you could buy anything. You know, like those economists who have been saying for years that rising prices would magically bring additional oil to the market? That has become a peakoiler joke, and I'm afraid that we are going to let the rest of the world in on the joke. The truth is, if there is a real supply shortage, you could throw an infinite amount of money at it, and all that happens is that prices rise toward infinity, and still nothing might come forth. If the supply simply does not exist, it simply does not exist. That's it."Link

Personally, I never saw any shortage at all in Osaka. And I shop at the supermarket everyday, and was looking for it. Now, of course, the whole thing has totally blown over. So where are all the peak oil blowhards to give us a sermon on what that means?

 
At Saturday, January 17, 2009 at 9:42:00 AM PST, Blogger Ari said...

JD,

That's the thing! You have this strange group in the PO community that looks at any wobble, any blip, any setback as being "a sign of endtimes!" Like I've said before: I don't preclude the chance that everything might some day come crashing down. At the very least, it will end to some degree when the sun decides to boil the Earth and its inhabitants. However, it's a question of probability. How likely is it that a minor shortage of butter in a country that had recently culled a significant portion of its dairy herd is a sign that things are coming to an end?

That is not to say, of course, that there aren't weaknesses in the system. Anyone who had read Taleb-- or hell, just thought it through-- could have noticed a major weakness in the 90s and early 2000s. I'm referring of course to the incestuous and obese credit market. Anyone with half a brain could have pointed out that the credit market was a disaster waiting to happen-- and that the real estate market built up around it was also a storm ready to hit.

Funny how the Great Depression was started by stupid creditors, and the Great Recession was also started by stupid creditors. That's life for you.


OD,

By the way, one of the guys on that link you provided (doomers.us) said this:

"I like Obama. He is one of the few politicians I'd personally like to have a cup of coffee with. I supported him. I was VERY glad to see him bypass McCain/Palin. But he is only STARTING to get a handle on what is going on. When it finally dawns upon him just how impossible it will be for him to overhaul pretty much EVERYTHING, you will see his now-famous calm, cool, and collected demeanor disappear like a chalkmark in a rainstorm.

Poor bastard...and poor everyone, really.

But we did do it to ourselves, after all."

Wait... what? Really? This guy really thinks that Obama is somehow unaware of the scope of the problems, yet he, some random schlub on the Internet (like me!) is privy to a kind of Masonic brotherhood of information that Obama, who is now being briefed by the largest (though not necessarily the most competent) intelligence apparatus in the world, is somehow less aware?

This is the "doomer" community in a nutshell to me. A bunch of schlubs on the Internet who think they've got their finger on the pulse of something of immense importance, when they're really just finding straws to grasp at. And I mean that with as little malice as possible.

Like I've said many times before: there is a lot that I can't answer (that really riles people up for some reason.) I can't say how much oil will come to the market next year. I can't say when this recession will end. I can't say what population growth will look like in 2050. I can't say a lot of things with certainty.

I can stab at them and sort of nick them a bit, and maybe guess from there (guess somewhat intelligently, I hope!) But I can't say for certain. Neither can they, but they have all forgotten that.

 
At Saturday, January 17, 2009 at 10:34:00 AM PST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ari, living in the belly of this winter's beast (Three straight days below -20) in Minnesota. I can tell you that their is no shortage of any consumables at any scale here. There might have been a shortage of people going out and consuming for those three days but if we wanted to their would have been enough for us to consume.

Can't wait for your review of the Oil Myth book.

 
At Saturday, January 17, 2009 at 11:27:00 AM PST, Blogger Ari said...

Minnesotan,

I'm not surprised. To be honest, I've gone to the local markets on some of the worst days here in NY, and haven't seen anything but more parking spaces.

I loved that, by the way.

 
At Saturday, January 17, 2009 at 9:29:00 PM PST, Anonymous Stuck in Shizuoka said...

Good, quick analysis of the doomer community Ari.

As for the now-infamous "butter shortage", I was living in central Japan at the time and the situation was basically this;

some supermarkets ran low on butter or butter was not on the shelves at spot times for a couple of months. Deliveries of fresh DOMESTIC butter was spotty. Twice we had to resort to drive to another supermarket to pick up butter and three times we had to resort to the unthinkable and buy margarine (gasp...The horror! The horror! Oh the humanity). Since then butter is back on the shelves regularly.

Of course, here in Japan, I do worry about some shortages, namely gasoline and kerosene (since so many in the colder areas use kerosene to heat their homes). Most in the urban areas would simply make do with electric heaters and of course, many people don't even need heat at all.

However, should there be shortages of gasoline and/or the price rises to $7-$8 a litre, I worry about this country's economic future.

On the other hand, watching the massive growth of battery technology and BEV/HEV commensurate with a similar push in China COUPLED with open statements about future high oil costs/scarcity on the part of automotive giants like Toyota and Nissan, makes me somewhat more optimistic.

On that note, I'll leave with a question. To spur on technology/investments in BEV/HEV, alternative fuels, sustainable energy/ and uncoventional oil, is there anything that leaders in the G8, and especially Obama, can do to put a floor on the price of gasoline. Is it possible that Obama would tax gasoline to boost the current turn towards electric powered transportation. Or would that simply be far, far too unpopular and he would become another Jimmy Carter--ripe for a quick bounce out of the Whitehouse at the hands of more greedy Neocons?

Nice post on geothermal JD, a recent stanford research article supports your last few postings on Geothermal and Solar.

 
At Sunday, January 18, 2009 at 1:51:00 PM PST, Anonymous Babun said...

Yeah, this geothermal stuff was more interesting than I thought. I didn't even think i was gonna read through all of the stuff since i thought geothermal really didn't have any potential. Seems i might have been very wrong.

 
At Sunday, January 18, 2009 at 2:51:00 PM PST, Anonymous mike S. said...

On the shortages thread, we've had some here in the inland Pacific Northwest, but they were due to the passes through the Cascades being snowed shut. Again. This is not new, they often get closed in the winter. And now that they are open, the shelves have filled back to normal.

For those who do not have a map, there are only three ways through the mountains. US 12, US 2, and I-90, which used to be US 10. Otherwise it's down to the low-land route on I-84 on the Oregon side of the Columbia River. And this year that got closed too.

No big deal since we know it can happen and are prepared to ride it out, but if anyone sees the Global Warming Al promised us, please send it to Washington State. Spokane had a record snow fall in December.

 
At Sunday, January 18, 2009 at 3:10:00 PM PST, Anonymous Sam M said...

Mid last year a geothermal site was found in Queensland with the potential to replace 10-15 coal-fired power stations, enough to power the entire state for thousands of years. There are still issues of power transmission over the required distances to be considered, but it's a phenomenal amount of energy.

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/queensland/major-clean-energy-find-in-qld/2008/07/20/1216492219861.html

 
At Monday, January 19, 2009 at 11:20:00 AM PST, Anonymous benny "MOAG" cole said...

This geothermal could turn out to be hot, very hot.
Seriously, there seems no shortage of ways to generate electricity, many of them green (solar, wind, geothermal, nukes, I suppose even hydro in some contexts). We have a plethera of options.
So, if we migrate to PHEV car fleets, over a decade or two we find....we don't need half as much oil as we used to.
Somehow, this does not strike me as a doom-filled scaenrio. Indeed, cleaner air, quieter streets...what is not to like about this direction? I am much more concerned about he perma-recession going-away present left behind by W.

 
At Monday, January 19, 2009 at 1:14:00 PM PST, Blogger Ari said...

Benny,

The truth is that the current economic situation is a bipartisan product, through and through. Clinton let Greenspan and the Austrian libertarian crew do as much damage as Bush did.

Let's not forget that Glass-Steagall was repealed by a bipartisan majority.

 
At Monday, January 19, 2009 at 1:50:00 PM PST, Anonymous benny MOAG cole said...

Ari-
Not sure about that. After all, this recession is happening deep on Bush Jr's watch. He has had R-Party majorities during most of his terms. Blaming Clinton now is bending over backwards to appear non-partisan.
Even worse, Bush jr. inherited an optimistic nation, running federal surpluses, and not trapped in two overseas conflicts.
He leaves behind a deeply pessimistic nation, and years to go before we finally get out of Iraq and Afghanie.
In summation, the Clinton Administration seems like the "good ol' years," while the Bush Administration has been a trainwreck.
I am not even that much of a Democrat. I am just calling it like it is.

 
At Monday, January 19, 2009 at 3:56:00 PM PST, Blogger Ari said...

Benny,

I don't say it to be non-partisan. I'm definitely a Democrat (contrary to the bizarre allegations I've had lobbed at me here.) I just believe that one of the roots of the problems today rested in the deregulatory frenzy of the 90s. I tend to take a longer view of economic problems, and I believe that the current situation would not have been nearly as severe if banks like Citibank had been kept out of mortgage-backed securities and the like as Glass-Steagall required.

 
At Monday, January 19, 2009 at 5:13:00 PM PST, Anonymous benny "MOAG" cole said...

My point is, on the Clinton watch, the dereg was roughly working. The economy grew with low inflation, and there was not rampant overinvestment in real estate (we did have a dot.com bust).
So, in 2000, you would have to say, "Well, the dereg is working so far."
The poop hit the air circulator in the years 2002-7, when money gushed out of every lender's orifice onto any sort of property, borrowed by anybody with a pulse ( part because the dot.com bust scared people off of tech/Wall Street. Excess capital had to go somewhere.).
Obviously, much tighter real estate underwriting standards should have beem imposed, by fiat if necessary.
Securitization played a role, as did a global capital glut.
My point is, this happened on Bush jr's watch, and he responded like he did to all challenges, by taking a really cool bike ride.
Now, we have to spend years in repair.
Another reason oil will hit $10 in 2009-10.

 
At Tuesday, January 20, 2009 at 6:59:00 AM PST, Blogger JD said...

Anon,
Sign your posts, or say something with content. Penny-ante trolling will be deleted.

 
At Tuesday, January 20, 2009 at 8:45:00 PM PST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Was not the real estate market set into motion with the Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997, signed into law by President Clinton?

Seems like a supply side tax cut of that magnitude, sending several trillion dollars straight into the value of the nation's housing stock, just might have started the whole ball rolling.

Anon- Robert Dobb

 
At Tuesday, January 20, 2009 at 9:55:00 PM PST, Anonymous benny MOAG cole said...

Sheesh, and let's blame President Eisenhower for something too.
Dudes: The economy tanked deep into the Bush years, and he had an R-Party Congress for most of those years. The Bush Administration is a train wreck.
The question is can we get the engine back on the tracks?
It ain't going to happen soon, and oil will sink into single digits before it gets chugging hard again.

 
At Wednesday, January 21, 2009 at 11:13:00 AM PST, Blogger DB said...

South Korean university invents a low energy process to extract biofuel from seaweed.
Seaweed grows 8x faster than corn.
Plenty of space to grow seaweed.

Plug-in hybrids which run off of electricity and seaweed fuel?

I bet Japan has plenty of Seaweed it can use.

link is here
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16456-invention-biofuel-from-the-oceans.html

 
At Wednesday, January 21, 2009 at 8:40:00 PM PST, Anonymous Anonymous said...

benny, don't misunderstand me, Bill signed the bill written by Republicans, and voted into law by not only the majority of Elephants, but the majority of Donkeys too!

Hee Haw!

wiki it yourself, Tax Payer Relief Act of 1997.

Pure Supply Side economics. As a matter of fact, the largest tax cut in our nation's history.


Anon- Robert Dobb

 
At Friday, January 23, 2009 at 9:23:00 AM PST, Blogger wchfilms said...

Regarding shortages... um, is it me, or is there a ridiculous overlap in most goods anyway? It's very hard to see a shortage of any consequence. And a shortage of food in America is absurd considering the amount produced here. Short term shortages of some things are easily possible, but will likely simply spur more economic activity when it's realized "oh crap there is still demand for this seemingly optional product!"

There was a gas run/panic in Nashville a few months back. Related to the hurricane I think, I wasn't living there, so got it second hand. Kind of amusing, because the shortage wasn't real, it was just a rumor. (*Briefly* self-fulfilling.)

Grocery store "panics" are pretty common in the south if a major unusual weather event is predicted, like a large snowfall in areas where it is rare. Of course, it's always compensated for within a few days.

 
At Friday, January 23, 2009 at 8:39:00 PM PST, Blogger Salt Shaker said...

If the IEA was wrong initially, why do they now become profits (no pun intended).

Salt, CPA, CMA, CFM

I ate a doomer last night like the world was ending...she said thank you, there is hope.

 
At Saturday, January 24, 2009 at 4:53:00 AM PST, Blogger Bratticus said...

``Yukon Energy Corp. will spend about $285,000 this year to try to find an affordable source of geothermal power, the utility says.'' lulz

 
At Wednesday, February 4, 2009 at 6:03:00 PM PST, Anonymous locksmith mesa said...

That's look bad.. =(

 

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